Talk:Gwendolyn Diomedes/Archive 1

Okay. This is pretty ridiculous.

I'm not even going to get into the Manual of Style problems with the article right now, except to say that a Shadow Broker dossier belongs on its own page.
 * There are no Kusanagi-style gynoids in the ME universe. The kind of research that would be required to create a realistic robotic body is pretty much universally banned by both the Citadel and the Systems Alliance.
 * The batarians' raid on Mindoir in 2170 was just that - a raid. By 2174 CE, they would have been long gone from the planet.
 * The notion of the Illusive Man taking pity on some random comatose girl and spending a shitload to build her a new body is laughable. He's a man who sees no problem with experimenting on autistic children, drug addicts, and soldiers with PTSD, for Christ's sake.
 * In order for Gwen to have been running with Archangel's gang, Cerberus would have had to have finished reviving her by 2183 CE. If they had managed to create an entire new body by then, then why did it take them two years to revive Shepard?
 * The Shadow Broker's files have revealed the last names of all 11 members of Archangel's gang. The Shadow Broker knows the names because Garrus carved them into the frame of his visor. To claim that there was a 13th squad member that he just forgot about is sacrilege.
 * The history section asserts that little is known about Gwen's life before she became a gynoid, yet the Shadow Broker files contain a pretty detailed history. So which is it?

Overall, this article need some serious revision. I would start by taking the history as described in the Shadow Broker files and integrating it into the history section. -- Gnostic 04:45, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, It's obvious you didn't read it for what it was, you just read it to find faults and then stab at me with them. settle down, you don't need to get worked up about this. Let me begin by saying that I don't have much experience creating fan articles, but like creating ones that leave room for the imagination. It's like reading a book, if it's too detailed it feels like you're watching a movie. It's not fun.
 * First off all; she doesn't have a realistic robot body. She has a human brain, organs and muscles. She is as human as she can be and only has a cybernetic skeleton because Cerberus scienists were unable to recreate bone at that time. She still needs to breathe and eat. She is closer to Adam Jensen then Kusanagi. second, she was created by Cerberus, not the Citadel or the Alliance and I've never really seen Cerberus play by the rules.
 * So then it's a batarian slave cell that was left over.
 * Hmm, Good point, I will change that. I was kinda going to make the Illusive Man show a little empathy, maybe even come to treat her as his daughter, but if you rather he doesn't. I mean, it's my article and all, but yeah. OK.
 * Well at that time the "Lazarus" project was still premature (it didn't even have an official name yet). After she got her new body, she still had years of recupperation to go through (learning how to walk, how to speak, how to hold stuff.). The only reason they rushed it was because her organ-necrosis got to severe.
 * During the time of Archangel, all she had for a name was "Gwen". She only learned about her surname after she joined the Alliance.
 * Little is known about her because that is actually the case. If you read the Shadow Broker files, Glyph mentions Liara T'soni a couple of times. This kind of suggests she's the only one who's seeing the files.

The Shadow Broker files stay on my page. Because it is a essential part of Gwen's article. Everything related to Gwen should be on her page. If you want it on the Shadow Broker page, by all means, copy it to that page.

The layout is like this because I want to build up anticipation, leaving bits and pieces before they eventually get to the end and everything is revealed. I could best describe it as a the first episodes of Stargate. It starts with a stargate and people you don't know and their history is shown during the episodes, not before. Same with Lost, it starts with a plane crash and you know non of the characters, but everything is revealed during the episodes. My article was never ment to be linear, because that's just boring. I want people to keep reading with the anticipation that everything will be explained in the end.

And lastly, why did you remove the "Writer" Template? At was to inform people that they should first ask permission to edit my page, which I don't remember me giving you. So you kinda broke your own rule there. As Admin, you should show the good example to people. If your run this site as a dictatorship, people won't stay very long...

Due note; This article is still a Work In Progress Cookiegobbler 12:39, April 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't run this wiki as a dictatorship. I run it as a rehab facility for people who actually want to learn how to become better writers. At any time, you're free to withdraw to the crackhouse that is MEFF, where Dantanius doesn't give a shit as long as you don't bother him, but if you're here, I assume that you want to improve your articles, and part of that improvement is attacking the thinking that has lead to it being flawed.


 * To that end, we vigorously attack the attitude of "It's MY article, I know what's best", because we know that such attitudes don't help the writer improve. And deleting the "Writer" template is one of the first steps to attacking that attitude. Just as the First Step in recovery from an addiction is admitting one's powerlessness over their addiction, the First Step to improving your writing at MEFW is to admit that you don't know everything there is to know about writing. And in your case, you really don't know much about writing an encyclopedic article. It's not the same thing as writing a fanfic.


 * And just so we're clear, I actually do want to see you improve. You're actually capable of stringing two words together coherently, which is more than can be said for many of the folks who come here.


 * As to your bullet points:


 * If she's as human as can be, then there's no need to call her a "gynoid infiltration unit", is there?
 * The Batarian Hegemony would not just leave slavers on Mindoir. They are an absolute dictatorship, and to just abandon the slavers runs the risk that they could be captured and either tortured for information about the Hegemony or, worse, turned into pro-human sympathizers.
 * You are free to characterize the Illusive Man however you wish, but I would point out that one of the things that makes him a compelling character is the tragic irony that while he is ostensibly humanity's greatest champion, he himself stopped being truly human all the way back in 2157 CE, when he and his two closest friends were exposed to a Reaper artifact, which killed his friends and slowly began the process of turning him into a Reaper proxy (this was in the ME miniseries Evolution.) By about 2170 CE, he was ordering projects to deliberately expose civilians to eezo and signing off on experiments on an autistic child.
 * Even if all Gwen had was her forename, Garrus would still put it on his visor.
 * Since you brought up Liara, I would point out that she would never program Glyph to address her by her real name. Being the Shadow Broker means that you make a lot of enemies, some of whom might seek to kill your loved ones.
 * As for the Manual of Style issues, encyclopedic articles are not fanfics. I would love to go over, in depth, the differences between the two, but that is for another time, as I'm sure you are about to throw a tantrum over everything I've just written. -- Gnostic 05:49, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, uhm. I'm not a tantrum person. ^.^ Everything I wrote in the last post was ment to come out with a calm demeanor. Although the last portion kinda suggested otherwise. >.>

Anyway. We can brainstorm about the first 4 matters, the last one unfortunatly is set in stone by the developers themselves. :/ Cookiegobbler 13:02, April 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, the Illusive Man wanted her as an infiltration and sabotage unit (that's why she has very little weapons training.). Would android more precise? I don't know what kind of word to use for a person who's only cybernization is her (exo-)skeleton. Augmented maybe?
 * Ok, so no Batarians, but I want it to be on Mindoir. Are there thresher maws on Mindoir? Or storm similar to those on Mars? About this we can brainstorm.
 * Well that part I already changed. He uses Gwendolyn as test subject for the early stages of project Lazarus, but in the end she started costing him to much money and didn't want it to fail. She had to become useful, she had to become her money's worth.
 * What if Garrus (Archangel) ran out of space on his visor? Or maybe Gwen was more special to him (she was kinda his pupil and they shared special moments) and he carved her name on the inside of his suit?
 * In ME3 Glyph adresses her as Dr. T'soni. By adressing her as Dr. T'soni, it gives the suggestion that she's watching this during the events of ME3. (I see I used Miss T'soni instead.)


 * Alright. I'm sorry for my abrasiveness. The past few days have been exposing me to an unusual amount of stress in my normal life, and I've been taking it out on you and the other MEFFers. By way of a peace offering, I've made you a custom portrait for Gwen. You don't need to use it if you don't want to, but it's yours. Or, if you like, I could make another one with your input.


 * I think "augmented" would probably be the closest word.
 * There might be Thresher Maws on Mindoir, but they wouldn't attack an aircraft. Being subterranean creatures, they find their prey through sensing distrubances on the surface. On the other hand, any colony in the Attican Traverse, particularly one that was so violently attacked, will attract the sort of paranoid-loner hillbilly who would set up his own shoddy anti-aircraft system, so that might serve as an expanation for how the Diomedes' plane got shot down.
 * I can buy that.
 * So she's like his Mary Magdalene? I actually really like the idea of her name being on the inside of his suit.
 * Argh. ME3 had one too many damn FNGs on its writing staff. But that's not your fault.
 * The Manual of Style stuff still needs work. An encyclopedic character article should give us all the basic information about the character, without any dramatic considerations. It's not a story. We'll keep working on it. -- Gnostic 19:33, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

It's ok. I can only speculate how stressful the life of an admin can be, but it's better to be kind than abrasive towards others. I don't remember if someone said it to me or if I read it somewhere, but "a little kindness goes a long way".

I have to say that some of the picture you make do look astonishing, others look downright hilarious. xD

As for Gwen's picture you made, I'd say, qua facial features, it's definitely her. There's just something off about the hair. It makes her look like a tomboy. Her hair is in a ponytail during missions (so it wouldn't get in her way) and lose when off-duty. Her ponytail is short though.The haircolor is also a little bit darker, She has dark brown hair with kindoff a dark red hue when light hits it. This picture would best discribe her hair.

The background is a bit too depressing for Gwen aswell. It should be more upbeat, something in the style of a garden on the Citadel or her apartment on the Citadel? About the layout. I was thinking the Quotes and Conversation section was getting a little to large. I was thinking of just creating a link in the Misc. section that links to a new page called "The Diomedean Chronicles" and that there her quotes and conversations would be stored.
 * Alright, augmented it is. ^.^
 * It should be someone who has the technical know-how to create SAM-sites from the left-over rocket launchers and such, a scrounger type person. Maybe a Quarian who helped the colony before the raid and became paranoid after? A normal Quarian on his pilgrimage that became something similar to Veetor because of the event?
 * Well, the Illusive Man's part has already been changed. Was thinking about incoperating a conversational piece where the Illusive Man is talking through holo to a doctor and how her physical state is deteriorating.
 * Alright, approved. I'll start thinking about how to incorperate it. ^.^
 * That's nobodies fault really. :/

The Diomedean Chronicles would be similar to the Shadow Broker section (in that Glyph talks to the person reading it).

"Welcome to the Diomedian Chronicles, user. You have selected historical conversation/quote number #-##."

What do you think? At least then I'd have something to put in the Misc. section. xD Cookiegobbler 21:27, April 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Gwen_Diomedes_cropped.jpg's my second attempt at a portrait. Her hair is tied back in a ponytail, though that might not be readily apparent from the angle.


 * You're overthinking the SAM site thing. It really doesn't take quarian know-how to build a basic one. It's basically a matter of mounting a rocket launcher on some sort of swivel and hooking it up to a motion detector or two. It only becomes complicated if you want some discrimination in targeting. And besides, there are not likely to have been many quarians on Mindoir in the 2170s. Their unique dietary needs mean that they'd have to spend a crapload having food supplies shipped to the colony. -- Gnostic 06:23, April 6, 2012 (UTC)

hmm, to be honest, I liked the first one more then this one. She's looks to old now. Like a woman in her mid 20's while Gwen's body should represent that of a teen.

No wait, forget it. I don't want you to waste anymore time on it. I'm just too picky. It'll never be right. xD

On another note, I changed most of the inconsistancies on my page. Should be a lot clearer and more properly in-lined with the canon story.

What's your view on my suggestion of a new page that holds Gwen's Quotes and Conversations I talked about earlier? You know, kinda to clean up her pages some more (the conversations take a lot of space -_-). Cookiegobbler 17:04, April 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not so sure you want to have her look teenaged. I mean, she's supposed to be infiltrating, right? A teenager searching through a military base would attract a lot of attention. Plus, you have gifs featuring her in the nude. If that's supposed to be a teenager, that might create legal problems for us.


 * And yes, the quotes and conversations section should be on its own page. -- Gnostic 21:58, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, to be precise Gwen looks like a 19 year old. In my country (Belgium) someone of the age of eighteen/nineteen is still concidered a teenager cause the word "teen" is in it, even though you're legally an adult. I see where it might bring confusion though. I'll just say adolescent from now on. ^.^

I've looked around a little and I can't really find a category for my quotes and conversations section. Is there even one? O_o Cookiegobbler 00:00, April 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * You could put the Diomedes Chronicles in the Short Stories category. Dantanius 22:37, April 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think it would be better to just say she looks like a young adult. I don't know how things are in Belgium, but in the US, "adolescent" means underage. -- Gnostic 22:17, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Era date
I just wanted to tell you about a possible typo I found in the character infobox. It lists the "Era" as "2200s". I just wasn't sure if that was a typo or if that was intentional. Other than that, I think that this is a great article.

Hunter Killer 00:24, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

It means the 22nd century (2100 to 2199). Cookiegobbler 00:31, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

OK. Now I get it. Thanks.

Hunter Killer 00:34, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for enjoying Gwen's page. Be sure to check the Diomedian Chronicles if you're a tentative reader. It contains her quotes and dialogues. ^.^ Cookiegobbler 00:37, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

One more try...
Alright. How about this pic? -- Gnostic 17:26, April 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer the first image. :) Dantanius 18:30, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to the image that's currently being used as the portrait, or to my first attempt? -- Gnostic 19:02, April 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * OOOOOH! That's perfect! I love it! ^.^
 * But, as you know, I like to keep my pages here and on the MEFF Wiki identical. So if I use it here I want to use it on the MEFFW as well. If Dantanius would allow it?
 * Or I could make a Gallery section on my page for those who want to make fanart of Gwen, lately I've seen Gwen's gotten quite populair. >.>
 * What do you guys suggest? Cookiegobbler 20:03, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'll allow any image as long it's appropriate. It's perfect. :) Dantanius 22:29, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Glad you like the new portrait. -- Gnostic 05:25, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

You didn't have to, but I really appreciate you caring so much for Gwen and putting so much of your time into her. Thank you, Gnostic. ^.^ And my thanks to you aswell Dantanius for letting me use it on your site aswell. ^.^ You guys rock! Cookiegobbler 12:38, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

I was going to ask if I could use your red-tech sci-fi image and then I remebered I don't use non-mass effect images. :) Dantanius 18:31, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm was going to upload the entire picture and add it to a gallery section, cause that's her red "Nexus" armor. >.> Cookiegobbler 18:37, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'd still prefer using the Red tech sci-fi image. Dantanius 22:16, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry, it's not gone for long. Gonna make a gallery soon. Cookiegobbler 22:19, April 20, 2012 (UTC)